After a few overheating issues on the weekend it's time that Doof gets a rear mount radiator. Hopefully this thread will help someone out later as well.
I know Steve and Dank both have their rear mounts done so maybe you can guide me with a few points. Understanding that neither of you have a G16 engine.
1. Does the Vitara water pump pump enough water or do I need an electric booster pump?
2. How often are the fans running? With no natural air flow I guess they'd be on a lot? My old Hilux was too loud to hear them running.
3. Will the factory radiator do the job being that the coolant volume will rise significantly aiding the cooling process?
Rear mount radiator thread
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gwagensteve
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Re: Rear mount radiator thread
Hi Jim,
I can't comment on booster pump requirements. As you might be aware, I run electric pumps only. However, it's conceivable I'll be running a G16B soonish in Piggles and I intend to run both mechanical and electric pumps in that application.
My fans cycle maybe 50% on 50% off when fully up to temperature and at idle. I can't hear them in the cab, even with the car at idle.
I have no idea how often they run when at speed, but my car never gets warm - it runs up to just below 1/2 on the gauge and will get cooler than that if I descend for prolonged periods, but never hotter.
I think one of the things about my radiator location is that the radiator is in "still air" - there's almost no breeze at any speed directly behind the cab and despite that most people run ducts and shrouds to try and force air though the radiators, I think my setup works as well as is does precisely because I'm not trying to duct it air - the fans pull the the air required to cool the car through the radiator as required.
The risk with ducting as that it might do things you don't want - it's quite possible, for instance, that with a duct above the cab, the inlet to the duct is at low pressure when at speed, so the fans are then trying to pull air against this.
I would up the size of the radiator. You have plenty of room back there, and without the effect of an engine driven fan, you're 100% relying on the thermos to do the job and it's a nice feeling to never see the gauge move regardless of the caning you are giving the car. I run a late 80's/early 90's camry radiator, and this might be enough for a G16B, but I think I'd just go straight the the BA falcon setup Mitch was originally setting up Doof with. It's a neat package of fans and radiator, and it's quite slim.
Obviously, you'll need to sort fan control. There are Davies,Craig controllers, but I made a Jaycar kit and it's worked flawlessly. I'm aware that Dank runs a much more sophisticated setup for fan control though.
Steve.
I can't comment on booster pump requirements. As you might be aware, I run electric pumps only. However, it's conceivable I'll be running a G16B soonish in Piggles and I intend to run both mechanical and electric pumps in that application.
My fans cycle maybe 50% on 50% off when fully up to temperature and at idle. I can't hear them in the cab, even with the car at idle.
I have no idea how often they run when at speed, but my car never gets warm - it runs up to just below 1/2 on the gauge and will get cooler than that if I descend for prolonged periods, but never hotter.
I think one of the things about my radiator location is that the radiator is in "still air" - there's almost no breeze at any speed directly behind the cab and despite that most people run ducts and shrouds to try and force air though the radiators, I think my setup works as well as is does precisely because I'm not trying to duct it air - the fans pull the the air required to cool the car through the radiator as required.
The risk with ducting as that it might do things you don't want - it's quite possible, for instance, that with a duct above the cab, the inlet to the duct is at low pressure when at speed, so the fans are then trying to pull air against this.
I would up the size of the radiator. You have plenty of room back there, and without the effect of an engine driven fan, you're 100% relying on the thermos to do the job and it's a nice feeling to never see the gauge move regardless of the caning you are giving the car. I run a late 80's/early 90's camry radiator, and this might be enough for a G16B, but I think I'd just go straight the the BA falcon setup Mitch was originally setting up Doof with. It's a neat package of fans and radiator, and it's quite slim.
Obviously, you'll need to sort fan control. There are Davies,Craig controllers, but I made a Jaycar kit and it's worked flawlessly. I'm aware that Dank runs a much more sophisticated setup for fan control though.
Steve.
michaelpiranha2000 wrote: The rear is in great condition. but has a broken crown wheel and pinon
Re: Rear mount radiator thread
So I guess I need one of these? Which will run the fans and pump.
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_ ... tails.aspx
interesting to see that they rate the electric pump to 3,000 hours without the controller and 6,000 hours with the controller. I don't see Doof ever doing 3,000 hours though.
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_ ... tails.aspx
interesting to see that they rate the electric pump to 3,000 hours without the controller and 6,000 hours with the controller. I don't see Doof ever doing 3,000 hours though.
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gwagensteve
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Re: Rear mount radiator thread
I think the controller is a good thing, but I wouldn't go anywhere near the Davies, Craig pump. AFAIK it runs a shaft seal. Bosch pumps for this application are magnetically coupled - there's no seal to fail.
I though I remembered reading the life on those Davies Craig pumps at 1500hrs. (?) Whilst I agree that none of our cars will do anywhere near that, they're not rating those pumps for 1500hrs in our application either.
Steve.
I though I remembered reading the life on those Davies Craig pumps at 1500hrs. (?) Whilst I agree that none of our cars will do anywhere near that, they're not rating those pumps for 1500hrs in our application either.
Steve.
michaelpiranha2000 wrote: The rear is in great condition. but has a broken crown wheel and pinon
Re: Rear mount radiator thread
The only bosch one I can find is the 20 ltr per minute pump as below. Is this what you're talking about?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Bosch-Water-Pump ... 0398491101
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Bosch-Water-Pump ... 0398491101
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gwagensteve
- Financial Member
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- Joined: Mon 13 Aug, 2007 5:20 pm
Re: Rear mount radiator thread
Bosch do a mind boggling array of 12V mag coupled pumps. That one looks pretty good.
I can't get the part # for mine (the only number is PA 66 GF 30 on the housing, which is the material it's made from - I mention this because it comes up a lot as a "part number" when looking for these pumps)
Here's a link to a bunch of them.
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/repla ... ement.html
they are also used as rear heater booster pumps on Dodge Durangos, and as water/air intercooler water pumps for TRD Hilux's.
PWR sell them for their water to air intercoolers, but from memory they was one arm and both legs for them.
I used to have a tech document somewhere that listed all the Bosch 12V PAD pumps and their flow rates etc, but I can't find it now.
I run two in series and the flow rate in L/min is insane. Don't be put off by the 19mm hose fittings on them.
Steve.
I can't get the part # for mine (the only number is PA 66 GF 30 on the housing, which is the material it's made from - I mention this because it comes up a lot as a "part number" when looking for these pumps)
Here's a link to a bunch of them.
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/repla ... ement.html
they are also used as rear heater booster pumps on Dodge Durangos, and as water/air intercooler water pumps for TRD Hilux's.
PWR sell them for their water to air intercoolers, but from memory they was one arm and both legs for them.
I used to have a tech document somewhere that listed all the Bosch 12V PAD pumps and their flow rates etc, but I can't find it now.
I run two in series and the flow rate in L/min is insane. Don't be put off by the 19mm hose fittings on them.
Steve.
michaelpiranha2000 wrote: The rear is in great condition. but has a broken crown wheel and pinon
Re: Rear mount radiator thread
Speak to Ross. He will get you onto the DTEC microtherm controller which is what I run. It has performed flawlessly in my simple application.
it runs something like 12 input feeds and 8 output feeds. I use one temp input feed and two of these output feeds being electric pump and thermos, both of these are run of variable solid state relays which give you the ability to control the flow of the pump and the speed of the thermos. I run a relatively simple program where thermos and pumps start at about 20% and ramp to 100% when it gets a couple of degrees above operating temp.
The good thing about it is that you can also monitor things like Auto tranny temp and control a thermo on a cooler for that system, can also run oil temp and pressure warning lights, piezo alarms or monitor systems through the microtherm program with an onboard computer.
One day I will get around to getting the most out of the microtherm as it is a powerful little controller and simple to wire up, calibrate and program. You can also set different programs to run in different seasons and save the "map" and reload at any time with a laptop and cable. It also has a failsafe where IF the controller dies you can earth out a couple wires and the system will run fulltime. I think I also have the stock temp switch wired as well ready to plug in as a backup.
The advantages of having a ute means you can mount the rad in a neutral pressure zone. I have some issues with the zook warming up on the highway over 80km/h because the fans are trying to pull air through the radiator into a pressure zone that is higher than inside the cab. I think I can fix this with some ducting into the back of the cab with a scoop on the side panel or some vents...stil exploring options here.
BUT, the best thing about a rear mount radiator is the ability to run an oversized radiator, the bigger the better. I'd seriously look at running something like a falcon radiator, shroud and thermos, can be had around the place for about $200 for the set. This will give you OEM Thermos which are usually beefier and better built than the davis Craig units and pull more air. You will have heaps of capacity and easy mounting system.
There would be other options out there as well but the falcon one is prob the biggest and cheapest, otherwise i think Gwagen runs a camry setup which looks to be a good size as well.
In regards to pumps, i looked at the bosch units and found most to be way overkill for my setup and Ross couldn't source them at the time I was looking due to production issues or something. The DC units even with the potential engineering weakness that gwagen points out have performed very well for me and they are easy to plumb into standard rad hose sizes. I have never heard of a DC pump failing in use since they were released. I run the stock water pump and use the DC pump on the outlet at the radiator to push water back to the motor. I used 32mm alloy pipe bent up under the car to route the water. It's about 6M of pipe all up.
it is so much better than a front mount it's surprising that not more people do it. If you want a simple application like Gwagen says just run a jaycar or DC controller. The DC controllers are not bad, adjustable and do the job.
it runs something like 12 input feeds and 8 output feeds. I use one temp input feed and two of these output feeds being electric pump and thermos, both of these are run of variable solid state relays which give you the ability to control the flow of the pump and the speed of the thermos. I run a relatively simple program where thermos and pumps start at about 20% and ramp to 100% when it gets a couple of degrees above operating temp.
The good thing about it is that you can also monitor things like Auto tranny temp and control a thermo on a cooler for that system, can also run oil temp and pressure warning lights, piezo alarms or monitor systems through the microtherm program with an onboard computer.
One day I will get around to getting the most out of the microtherm as it is a powerful little controller and simple to wire up, calibrate and program. You can also set different programs to run in different seasons and save the "map" and reload at any time with a laptop and cable. It also has a failsafe where IF the controller dies you can earth out a couple wires and the system will run fulltime. I think I also have the stock temp switch wired as well ready to plug in as a backup.
The advantages of having a ute means you can mount the rad in a neutral pressure zone. I have some issues with the zook warming up on the highway over 80km/h because the fans are trying to pull air through the radiator into a pressure zone that is higher than inside the cab. I think I can fix this with some ducting into the back of the cab with a scoop on the side panel or some vents...stil exploring options here.
BUT, the best thing about a rear mount radiator is the ability to run an oversized radiator, the bigger the better. I'd seriously look at running something like a falcon radiator, shroud and thermos, can be had around the place for about $200 for the set. This will give you OEM Thermos which are usually beefier and better built than the davis Craig units and pull more air. You will have heaps of capacity and easy mounting system.
There would be other options out there as well but the falcon one is prob the biggest and cheapest, otherwise i think Gwagen runs a camry setup which looks to be a good size as well.
In regards to pumps, i looked at the bosch units and found most to be way overkill for my setup and Ross couldn't source them at the time I was looking due to production issues or something. The DC units even with the potential engineering weakness that gwagen points out have performed very well for me and they are easy to plumb into standard rad hose sizes. I have never heard of a DC pump failing in use since they were released. I run the stock water pump and use the DC pump on the outlet at the radiator to push water back to the motor. I used 32mm alloy pipe bent up under the car to route the water. It's about 6M of pipe all up.
it is so much better than a front mount it's surprising that not more people do it. If you want a simple application like Gwagen says just run a jaycar or DC controller. The DC controllers are not bad, adjustable and do the job.
Re: Rear mount radiator thread
Cheers guys.
I have the Falcon thermos off my old Hilux and have a Falcon radiator ordered now. Just have to find a controller and pump, is Ross still a club member? Haven't seen him around for a bit.
I have the Falcon thermos off my old Hilux and have a Falcon radiator ordered now. Just have to find a controller and pump, is Ross still a club member? Haven't seen him around for a bit.
Re: Rear mount radiator thread
Nah he's a member of the Double Black Offroad 4wd Club now with little billy. but you can contact him on 0450965489 he's also not at Bosch anymore he's teaching at RMIT i think.
Otherwise you can contact Darren at DTEC Ross's offsider at contact@dtec.com.au
Otherwise you can contact Darren at DTEC Ross's offsider at contact@dtec.com.au
Re: Rear mount radiator thread
Cheers Dank, any ideas on what the flow rate of your pump is?