AT2020 - Chatter - Soft Shackles Reminder

[Greg]

Can we please get clarification on the minimum 33 inch tyre. It was 32 inch measured previously. Important information for those of us who would love to do AT. Thanks.

Rated battery tie downs are mandatory on tour

[Greg]

Tyre size minimum is a measured 32 on a sierra.

[BZOOK]

Can we please get clarification on the minimum 33 inch tyre. It was 32 inch measured previously. Important information for those of us who would love to do AT. Thanks.

Rated battery tie downs are mandatory on tour

Sooo many rules!! Hehehehe.

[nick73]

Also I came across a YouTube presentation on: "4x4 Soft Shackles vs Bow (Steel) Shackles" and if you are interested you can find it at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW304fXuG1M

Happy viewing,
Beng

I think the key thing that we want to move to soft shackles is the fact that many cars have home made and not rated recovery points or rated recovery points bolted to the car in ways that may be more prone to failure. Some people are better than others at fabricating, and in stressful situations whatever can be done to reduce the chance of big chunks of steel flying through the air the better.

It's just one less thing to worry about flying about the car in a roll over too.

The key dosnt seem logical to what your pushing. An unsafe recovery point is the issue. Regardless if you attach a soft shackle or a bow shackle to shonky recovery point there WILL be a projectile - the recovery point. A soft shackle will not make an average recovery point safe.

A recovery point must exceed the strength of the recovery gear. If your skill set cant provide a safe recovery point, you should have someone competent do so.

[gwagensteve]

You're absolutely correct Nick. A soft shackle won't make an inadequate recovery point safe, but it will likely halve the weight of the bits flying about if it fails.

The (suzuki) points I've seen fail have been of the stock wire loop type and when they fail, the wire fatigues and bends open. The mount doesn't become a projectile but anything that attaches to it will - a good case where a soft shackle increases safety.

We have been caught out numerous times previously with some people's recovery points only accepting an XX size shackle (which nobody has), or being inadequate, not at the right end of the car or in the right spot and various other things. Using a soft shackle provides more flexibility in that in can be used on a tube or crossmember without having a choke a strap or add another item like a sling or tree protector.

If mandating soft shackles makes some people reassess and/or improve their recovery points that's great - everyone wins.

I STILL, after 25 years 4WDing, have absolutely no idea what a "rated" recovery point means. I know full well what a rated shackle, endless sling etc is, because they are rated with a safety factor and have to comply with an Australian Standard.

Recovery points are, by nature, dynamically loaded and loaded in multiple directions. Assessed in that light, the way recovery points are rated is misleading at best. Nobody wants their mount to fail and cause injury or damage but under the right circumstances, ANYTHING can fail. The key is to reduce load on the mount as much as possible. Big car owners seem unable to do this as apparently valve bounce is required to recover any vehicle.

[BZOOK]

To that end are there now different and not before used sections of the chassis that are suitable for a soft shackle eg front or rear tube crosmembers that could be added to or upgraded in some way?

[nick73]

You're absolutely correct Nick. A soft shackle won't make an inadequate recovery point safe, but it will likely halve the weight of the bits flying about if it fails.

The (suzuki) points I've seen fail have been of the stock wire loop type and when they fail, the wire fatigues and bends open. The mount doesn't become a projectile but anything that attaches to it will - a good case where a soft shackle increases safety.

We have been caught out numerous times previously with some people's recovery points only accepting an XX size shackle (which nobody has), or being inadequate, not at the right end of the car or in the right spot and various other things. Using a soft shackle provides more flexibility in that in can be used on a tube or crossmember without having a choke a strap or add another item like a sling or tree protector.

If mandating soft shackles makes some people reassess and/or improve their recovery points that's great - everyone wins.

I STILL, after 25 years 4WDing, have absolutely no idea what a "rated" recovery point means. I know full well what a rated shackle, endless sling etc is, because they are rated with a safety factor and have to comply with an Australian Standard.

Recovery points are, by nature, dynamically loaded and loaded in multiple directions. Assessed in that light, the way recovery points are rated is misleading at best. Nobody wants their mount to fail and cause injury or damage but under the right circumstances, ANYTHING can fail. The key is to reduce load on the mount as much as possible. Big car owners seem unable to do this as apparently valve bounce is required to recover any vehicle.

Pretty ripe coming from me, but if i had any say on trip requirements id approach it a little differently going off of the issues you have experienced in the past.

Based on tour-but could be carried across to light trips.

-evey vehicle needs 'x' amout of recovery points. Those points need 'x' size hole and be mounted in 'x' postion (parallel to the chassis is undoubtedly the simplest and safest option) if bolted on, 'x' size bolts are required.

'X' is obv up for discussion, im sure there is endless amounts of literature on recovery points.

I agree that soft shackes are a great idea, but personally i dont think thay can replace a bow shacke in all cases.

Eg. Daisy chaining vehicles together for a river crossing or any other instance when constant line load is not applied

[gwagensteve]

The problem is the "X" and you're right, there is endless literature but no agreed standards. I use the stock front point on a Sierra and have done for many years. It's been adequate for my use. Is it rated? Absolutely not. It's a tie down, and not intended for recovery at all. They do fail. In the rear I use 80 series landcruiser tie downs. These are also not rated and not intended for recovery. They're also completely adequate for my car. My recovery points are so far below any recommended standard It's unlikely I could use them at all in other clubs.

Any standardised set of rules the club applied would have to be very conservative so as to indemnify the club should a mount determined to met the club's requirements fail and cause loss/injury.

That's how we've ended up with an industry of yellow painted recovery points that are 25mm thick and equalising saddles and recovery training and procedure manuals- liability. If the club sets a standard then it's liable if that standard proves to be inadequate.

Getting the balance between the two is the difficult bit and It is an area the club is lacking. It's also difficult when some vehicles don't have anything that passes as a recovery point and there's little aftermarket support (Jimny)- we're stuck with tie downs we shouldn't use that only fit shackles that are too small- fixing the problem requires some amount of fabrication. Do we permit these cars on our trips aware that the recovery points are compromised or so we send these people away?

However, for AT, the culture of the trip has been that the participants are experienced and understand what they've built. We're also often doing so sort of weird recovery where the flexibility of soft shackles (along with endless slings) makes for much smoother recoveries than bow shackles and tree protectors.

[porter.8.luke]

So has anyone had a think about location for the
2020 AT?

[Greg]

So has anyone had a think about location for the
2020 AT?

No Tour next year. We can't get the t-shirts organised in time