E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

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Pigpen
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E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by Pigpen »

Hi everyone,

Unable to find this in topic search so I thought I would post information about the use of E10 petrol in older Suzuki engines.

With the current cost of Petrol over $2 per litre I used E10 fuel to save some money (although it really wasn't that much at around $2 per tank cheaper)

I have a 1996 Vitara with a SE416 fuel Injected engine and thought I should be ok with this fuel however the engine pinged like crazy when it was under load. A search on the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries website advises pre 2008 Suzuki's cannot use any Ethanol fuel ....

https://www.fcai.com.au/environment/can ... end-petrol

Not sure if if unsuitable because of the physical properties within E10 or energy content reduction, which I speculate may be cause of pinging under load.

Has anyone had a similar experience ?

Cheers Rod
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christover1
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Re: E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by christover1 »

The rubber fuel hoses and the metal hoses and other bits have to be made suitable for the more corrosive nature of ethanol is my understanding. Pinging could need tuning Advance. I personally would not.
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Pigpen
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Re: E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by Pigpen »

Thanks Christo,

I will check timing after my next petrol fill with normal 91 RON and seek further info if any issues

Cheers Rod :)
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gwagensteve
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Re: E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by gwagensteve »

christover1 wrote: Thu 17 Mar, 2022 9:05 pm The rubber fuel hoses and the metal hoses and other bits have to be made suitable for the more corrosive nature of ethanol is my understanding. Pinging could need tuning Advance. I personally would not.
When I read this I was a bit confused and it took me a while to pick up what you meant by "tuning advance" so for clarity, I'll expand a little. After some thought, I don't think adjusting timing will fix the problem in this instance.

TL,DR: Retarding the timing won't make the air/fuel ratio correct in the cylinder so it will still run lean and will most likely still ping.

For fossil fuel petrol, octane is the principle measure of "anti knock" (or "pinging"), the lower the octane, the easier the fuel is to light but the quicker it burns; so the higher the octane, the more we can advance the timing, introducing the spark earlier into the chamber. This means the fuel has more time to burn inside the cylinder liberating more heat and therefore power. If you exclusively run on, say, 98 octane, you can increase timing advance quite a bit which significantly improves power and torque, compared to 91.

However, that's because the stoichiometric ratio for 100% fossil petrol is the same, (14.7:1) If you change from 91 to 98 octane, the same air/fuel ratio still applies, you can just get the spark in sooner because it burns longer. Obviously, more modern electronic engine control can detect the change in fuel and will retime the engine to suit and make adjustments to fuelling as required, so most cars are cheaper to run on 98 than 91.

However, Ethanol is a different ball game. Octane isn't really the best descriptor of the energy potential of Ethanol, but it's generally described as "over 100 Octane" and as high as 113(!) when compared to fossil fuel.

There is a big BUT though - it's not as energy dense. Stoich. for petrol is 14.7, stoich for 100% ethanol is 9:1 - so you're making more power, mostly because ethanol has a very strong cooling effect, but you have to add a LOT more fuel to see the power.

As discussed, Stoich for pure petrol is 14.7:1, and for E10 it's 14.04, so with a "dumb" efi system like that in a G16B, it's going to be running lean under full power. The EFI can probably trim fuelling at cruise by looking at the oxygen sensor, but as soon as you dip into the throttle, the computer stops looking at the O2 sensor and goes to it's pre-programmed map, which is designed for petrol, so it will go back to being lean.


PS, Tetra-ethyl lead was added to fuel in the 1950's as an anti-knock agent. The resulting increase in octane allowed the increase in engine compression ratio that lead to the 1950's-1970's horsepower war amongst the big three in the US. Tetra-Ethyl Lead was marketed as "Octel"- and when I first started to work at the refinery, the Octel container was still on site, it was shipped in from the Octel corporation in the US in 20' shipping containers. It is extremely hazardous as it passes through your skin so you get massive lead poisoning from just being splashed with it. TBH though it was probably the least dangerous option for increasing stability and power in fuels- the Germans were experimenting with hydrazine, benzine and toluene to get power out of aircraft engines in WWII and toluene was still being used in very large quantities in race fuel right into the 1980's, especially during the turbo period of F1.
michaelpiranha2000 wrote: The rear is in great condition. but has a broken crown wheel and pinon
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gwagensteve
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Re: E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by gwagensteve »

And because I like to nerd out about this stuff, here's another couple of fuel related stories, because I'm sitting in front of my computer.

1) Cheating and Go-karts

Years ago my work sent me to a national go-kart round at the track at Fisherman's Bend, next to the Westgate bridge. I was there to thickness test crankshafts because a cheat was to hollow out the inside of the crank counterweights and then press the balancing plugs back in, making the cheat undetectable. I was using ultrasonics to detect whether the crank had been tampered with. Anyway, it turns out the sanctioning body would also pay to have a scientist from RMIT bring a gas chromatograph to the track (not a small undertaking) to test the fuel.

For every event there was a control fuel which was just pump fuel from the nearest servo. Mr Scientist would run that through the chromatograph to create a baseline and then compare samples of fuel from the karts after each race, and obviously the fuel had to match. This was a second tier test - the initial test was just a quick specific gravity test to establish it was petrol and not, say, ethanol or something.

The reason they had to go to these lengths was that at some time a racer was selling "undetectable hot fuel"- which was regular pump fuel that had been bleached, had tonnes to toluene added, and then re-dyed the correct colour. As it was predominantly petrol, It passed on specific gravity and colour, only the chemistry would show the toluene.

Just how old mate was getting hold of commercial quantities of toluene I have no idea, but apparently his Kart was noticeably quicker which is what started the investigation and led to the cost and complexity of dragging a chromatograph to the track 20 years ago.

2) Hydrazine

As I mentioned, the Germans were using hydrazine to get power out of their aircraft engines (also, I suspect to try and boost up poor quality fuel, a major problem for the Germans in WWII) Hydrazine is incredibly unstable - it's basically a rocket fuel rather than an internal combustion engine fuel. As hot rodding and drag racing started to explode (excuse the pun) in the 1950's, hot rodders, many of whom had served in the military, started to experiment with adding it to nitromethane where it scavenges the oxygen out of the nitro, which is an oxygenated fuel. A 90hp flathead ford V8 would make 300hp with nitromethane/hydrazine fuel, but, the byproduct was a soap-flake like residue when vapours of the mix would condense. (like in the fuel tank, carb, inlet manifold etc)

"This nasty little by product was a shock sensitive explosive called the Methazodic Salt of Hydrazinium Acid, and was the result of allowing vapors from the Nitro/Hydrazine mixture to condense in a closed environment. Right, never mind this stuff will throw your crank on the ground after just a couple of runs, but if you happen to tap the carb with a wrench, it’ll blow your face off. Let’s go racing!"

The key was (is - apparently it still occasionally is used, despite being on perma-ban) to drain the fuel system immediately after the run to try and prevent condensation in the tank and engine before it blows up.

I first read about this in Hot Rod magazine, but here's a little online article about it.

https://www.dragzine.com/news/flashback ... hydrazine/
michaelpiranha2000 wrote: The rear is in great condition. but has a broken crown wheel and pinon
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gwagensteve
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Re: E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by gwagensteve »

Oh and yes, Ethanol strips the oxide layer off of aluminium so it basically "eats" aluminium. It's why modern fuel systems used stainless steel fuel rails not aluminium. Not an issue with one time use, but over time you'll get leaks.

Apparently E5 is OK, it starts to show as a problem with E10.

Interestingly, the LSA V8 in my GTSR forbids the use of ethanol despite other LS series motors being fine for up to E85. I have no idea why.
michaelpiranha2000 wrote: The rear is in great condition. but has a broken crown wheel and pinon
Pigpen
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Re: E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by Pigpen »

Steve,

Thanks for the comprehensive reply and confirming I shouldn't have a problem with one off use.

If I understand fully what you are saying, the use of E10 wont save money (in my case ) as more of it will be used compared to 91 RON ... :?:

Cheers Rod
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gwagensteve
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Re: E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by gwagensteve »

No, not true. Because your car doesn't know what fuel is in it, it will run lean with E10 in it, ping, and run hot. It will be cheaper to run until it does a head gasket or cracks the head (or the fuel system starts leaking) :lol:

If the car was smarter, it would add more fuel to compensate for the lower energy density of E10 and it should still drive properly, but might not be cheaper to run because of the extra fuel required.

Many years ago Shell released a 100 octane product which had ethanol in it. I tried it in my R50 Cooper S and it did feel a little crisper to drive but the fuel economy went to poo so it wasn't worth it.
michaelpiranha2000 wrote: The rear is in great condition. but has a broken crown wheel and pinon
Pigpen
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Re: E10 fuel in older Suzuki's

Post by Pigpen »

Ok got it - 8-)

Thanks again
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