The value of electric winches

[dank]

Being prepared when heading out bush is of the utmost importance. I think the suzuki club does a pretty good job of covering most bases when it comes to this.

Recently a club trip easy medium in Toolangi showcased the value of having an electric winch mounted to a vehicle. What was a two hour jaunt on one section of track could easily have been doubled if AJ didn't have that little chinese winch on the front of his car. The only real factor in this situation that may have been playing on peoples minds is the time it took to perform a safe recovery and the "what ifs" if we didn't have that electric winch there.

I know a lot of you here may not consider them as essential and a part of me agrees, but when we are running club trips speed and safety during recoveries certainly makes for a more enjoyable day. I think every time I head out I learn something new. In this case, the winch was the outstanding piece of equipment for the day.

The ability to utilise angles of pull with some basic gear seems to be very important in the terrain that we have here in Vic.

Steve mentioned something which I thought was worth mentioning again. The use of a length of synthetic rope and a snatch block pulley combined with a few shackles and a tree trunk protector can be an invaluable piece of gear when it comes to tricky recoveries and being able to get the right angle of pull on a vehicle that needs to be recovered.

This is more just general thoughts about recovery situations coming out. It would be interesting to hear other members ideas and thoughts about that particular situation and whether it changed your perceptions of the options available during a recovery.

[Jaffa]

I agree Dan, I have only really seen a winch used for dragging bogged cars out of bog holes, or straight up low traction hills, not in off camber slippery slopes with panel damaging trees in the way. I couldn't believe how well that little winch pulled. If we had a snatch block and a tree protector it would have been even more useful.

Brendan

[mightymouse]

A valuable discussion, sometimes learning by trial and error isn't the way to go

[Rant On]

The definition of "essential" varies substantially from person to person and vehicle to vehicle.
With light vehicles an electric winch, perhaps is a luxury but on a three ton Patrol much more of a necessity,

There have been some negative sentiments expressed about electric winches in the past - with strong elements of truth in them, they do have their unique challenges, limitations and benefits.

IMO some form of winch should be part of recovery gear ( and the accessories to use it... ) if your going to drive terrain that is "difficult" for your vehicle or those you go with - hand winches are a real option even it they are damm slow and hard work but very versatile.

When your stuck in an "interesting " position having an option, even if its slow is valuable.

With the availability of cheaper electric winches more people are going to fit and use them, whether we individually like them or not, but as a club we must accept that they are going to be used and ensure we help people to use them safely.

We spend lots of effort guiding our members on safe snatch strap recovery but IMO leave some significant gaps in our driver development. An example of this is a recovery with everyone shouting directions at the same time, at the least - annoying at worst downright dangerous. Those who are more aware of the experience levels of other members usually filter out the crap, but for a new driver its pretty overwhelming. Not hard to solve if we simply provide some club level guidance and guidelines ( notice I've avoided the word "training" and all its implications.....)

However, one thing I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of is that steel cable is an absolute menace - Id be happy to see it banned.

[Rant /]

[cj!]

Having used winches a few times offroad I am happy to have a winch onboard. I have used a hand winch and I am happy to not have to use one again but they do serve a purpose and can be particularly good at stabilising a vehicle that is on a wacky angle. With the light weight of most Suzuki 4wd's a snatch strap will suffice for most recovery situations when bogged but for a rolled vehicle, a heavy vehicle or on a particular obstacle a winch certainly has its place. The use of a snatch block or blocks with tree trunk protectors and a plasma rope extension certainly has merits in a number of situations and doesn't take up that much space or cost nearly as much as a winch.

I think that having a variety of recovery gear available allows options depending upon the particular situation and starting out with a snatch strap and rated shackles should be seen as the bare minimum and adding a snatch block, a tree trunk protector and a plasma rope extension is a very good idea. A decent shovel also goes a long way. More importantly though is knowing how and when to use it and use it safely. Good recovery points on tthe vehicle are also required.

I know that as a Club we don't offer any formal recovery training but it may be that we should cover it a bit in a future tech day/night where experiences/problems/solutions can be discussed.

I have seen ignorance, ego and and well meant but poor suggestions make what is a potentially dangerous situation much more dangerous than need be and it would be nice to reduce the chance of a disaster one day. While some members have plenty of experience there are those that are quite new to all of this and they could do with at least some guidelines to consider following.

I also agree on the wish to see cable replaced with plasma rope.

Here are a couple of things that are pretty basic but can make a difference.

There should only be one person in charge of co=ordinating a recovery and giving the order to snatch/winch/stop etc. This alleviates confusion and someone listening to the wrong person giving an order when all may not be right.

If you are not part of the recovery process stay well away and I do mean well away. If a snatch strap or winch cable breaks it can whip a fair distance and if you're in the way it won't be pretty, particularly if there is a hook or shackle attached to the end of it. Also, if it breaks the vehicle may roll backwards or even over and you don't want to be run over as again it won't be pretty. See a certain pattern developing? And if you have kids or friends etc. along keep an eye out for them as they probably won't understand the safety issues involved.

The ultimate decision to proceed with a recovery should reside with the owner/driver of the vehicle being recovered. If they aren't happy then it can always be left and recovered at a later time if need be.

[andrew_wale]

I was amazed what this winch did.
Especially what weight it could pull etc.

Brings a new light to the cheaper Chinese Winches.
Definitely consider a Chinese Winch over the name brands.

[gwagensteve]

There's some very good points being raised here.

It's well known I'm not a strong believer in electric winches, however, I'm rarely concerned about how long a recovery takes, I'm rarely objective focussed (i.e I don't care whether we reach point 'B' or not) and I like to problem solve a recovery.

I do, also carry quite a lot of recovery gear with me, generally the following:

Numerous shackles
At least one snatch block
Hand winch
Tree protector
At least one snatch strap, often two
20m of Plasma rope as a winch/snatch extension

This is normally enough gear to ensure that we can resolve a situation, and to date, we've always managed it- I've even used a truck ratchet strap as a recovery aid. (it did very well)

I've owned and used cars with electric winches. They're great, however, they do change the way you drive the car, in a way I'm not happy with in myself. When equipped with a winch, I'll tend to approach an obstacle looking for the recovery point to get me out. That's my primary concern. If I don't have an electric winch, I'm assessing all of my possible lines, where I'm going to have to place the car, how I'm going to be able to reverse out.... getting out the hand winch is a very low priority - a long way down the list. It comes out if I can't move the car and there's no-one available to move the car in the direction I need to move it.

With regard to reliability of winches- we had an early XD9000 warn winch for years - easily their worst winch in a long time. Slow and unreliable, it was also fitted to cars where removing the winch for servicing was a slow and laborious process. It's no surprise it let us down more than once. It's important to recognise the potential dangers of a winch failure and how it can be dealt with.

In relation to the performance of AJSR's winch - It did great, and it was heavily loaded up on a few occasions. However, it's also important to remember that it did great for a cheap winch. It's like a car on all terrains, or a standard cars - they'll always outperform your expectations because your expectations are low. I'm not knocking AJSR's winch at all - it did speed up our progress on that track a lot, especially considering the gear we had with us on the trip, but we were generally doing "assist" recoveries generally, not "full" recoveries - where the car was stuck hard or winching up a huge ledge or something.

Just some thoughts.

If I was travelling alone, and/or in a less capable car, in remote areas, I'd definitely seriously consider an electric winch. I do think they are a low priority when building a car though - consider that the more capable cars on the trip we are referring to did not require winching at all.

Steve.

[dank]

Thanks for your thoughts guy some really good points being brought up.

I agree with MM/cj about the use of steel cable, with synthetic rope getting cheaper it is now an option for anyones recovery kit.

Normally in my vehicle I would carry:

Gloves
Snatch block
3 x 3.25T Bow shackles
2 x 9m Snatch strap
20m Winch extension Strap
2.5T hand puller winch (cheap fence strainer type - had been used on more than one occasion to secure a rolled vehicle during the righting process, invaluable for its weight ~ 4kg)
Compressor
Fold away pruning saw or tomahawk
Medium sized spade
Warn Tabor 9k electric winch with 4.6hp warn upgrade motor
+ variety of first aid kit, fire extinguishers, hoses, belts, hose clamps, ultraweld metal putty etc etc...

In the past the areas I've wheeled in and the types of vehicles i've driven with have all been bigger, hiluxes, patrols, landcruisers etc. Having an electric winch was a good way of keeping the trip going when I'd driven through something a patrol had got stuck in.

Having a good range of equipment with basic knowledge of how to use it makes for a fun and enjoyable outing. i enjoy going out looking to drive hard stuff and if need be, be self sufficient and confident in my ability to recover myself.

Recovery is always part of the fun of going out 4wding and as Steve said time is not normally a concern during a recovery.

I think the trip highlighted the effectiveness of a well setup vehicle and how important having the right tyres are for the type of driving we were doing.

When you think of an electric winch which weighs anywhere from 30-50kg, that adds up to a lot of recovery gear that you could take in place of having a winch, including the extra weight of a good set of mud terrain tyres instead of normal highway terrains.

This trip also highlighted again how tyre choice makes a big difference in slippery conditions.

[mightymouse]

I think the issues of recovery and vehicle capability shouldn't be tied too strongly together - its certainly a fact that more capable vehicles do need recovery less often, but sometimes their recoveries are more........exciting.

Anyone who drives a 4WD off road is going to need or participate in a recovery at some point - knowledge and experience are the difference between effective recovery and disaster.

It doesn't matter how capable your vehicle is, recovery experience is very similar to the pool of "trackside repair knowledge" -at some point in time its going to be important.

And there is a hidden twist to recovery as well, that of legal liability ( as hinted at by cj! ). Ultimately the responsibility for the results of a recovery must rest with the owner of the recovered vehicle.

Whilst its understandable and desirable that the inexperienced call for help, at the end of the day it must be at the owners risk - something thats needs to be fully understood.

Another plus for some clearly defined recovery guidelines ?

[gwagensteve]

Very sound points MM.

We'll have to have a meeting to work out some guidelines.

Steve.

[dank]

Nicely articulated MM. Some guidelines for club trips might be a good idea. Emphasising the onus on the owner of the vehicle being recovered is definitely a fair point and one that should be widely publicised.

i can just see a novice or inexperienced driver being overwhelmed in a tricky recovery situation and allowing more experienced and percieved "helpful" people make the call on what might be best in that situation.

i know I would feel more comfortable knowing that if I was a novice/inexperienced driver/owner during a recovery situation that I was completely in charge of how my vehicle should be recovered. In this case it also allows for an excellent learning situation where other club members can advise on options but the decision is left to the owner of the vehicle to make the call either way.